En-WP: Act I -- Tryptological green Sashirolls tried neutrally

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Article for Deletion

Political positions of Jill Stein Template:REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD

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Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. SashiRolls (talk) 23:25, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

This is an unnecessary WP:POVFORK. I also have several additional concerns:

In addition to the article creator (tagged above), I am tagging the following editors who have weighed in on this article: Template:Yo, Template:Yo, Template:Yo, Template:Yo, Template:Yo. Neutralitytalk 21:31, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Delete - There is not a sufficient amount of meaninful political position material to justify a spinoff article. Many of her political positions range from aspirational to down right ludicrous, and are not the type of information that we would typically document in an independent article. - MrX 21:43, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Delete as per WP:POVFORK and the well-articulated concerns expressed by User:Neutrality. Note also that this article was created during discussions about the "positions" sections on Jill Stein in which article creator had just proposed creating this page and a fellow editor has said [1] not a good idea. I am not suggestion that a single editor's opinion must rule a second editor, only that That discussion should have been continued before creating this page.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:47, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep . All of the other main presidential candidates have a "Political Positions of" page, and those most active on Jill Stein's biography page (see Talk:Jill Stein) seem to wish to deny her this privilege. Note that no edits have been made to the page since it was split, and I am following consensus and editing at her bio page while her political positions remain on that page. To respond to Neutrality, Bloomberg never ran for President, Jill has done so twice, and to be honest I've never heard of Bill Richardson, so cannot comment. SashiRolls (talk) 22:31, 30 August 2016 (UTC)SashiRolls is article creator. E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:36, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
  • More to the point, Darrell Castle does not. Stein has never held political office except for being a member of the Lexington town meeting. Few if any RS regard her as a "main presidential candidate."E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:41, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
For Wikipedian practices, see Political positions of the United States presidential candidates by political affiliation, 2016 (table that I did not add though I am a Wikipedian.) SashiRolls (talk) 23:08, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
  • That page has had exactly 36 edits in the 2 months of its exisentce, almost all of them by the article creator, that gets~ 10 pageviews per day, and on which every single topic is marked "unknown" in the Jill Stein column. imho, the lack of active editing and paltry sourcing on that page demonstrate the problem with multiplying articles on minor political figures like Stein. As does Political positions of Cynthia McKinney although she, unlike Stein, was elected to Congress, and in that sense the article is not as absurd as Political positions of Ben Carson, although even Carson did have a period when he was polling serious numbers of voters. The McKinney positions page, sourced heavily to blogs, including 911truth.org, is a poster child for the problem of having articles of this type. It was created in 2008 when McKinney was the Green Party candidate for president, was written almost entirely by a single editor who has long since left this project, and has not been meaningfully improved in the decade it has existed.E.M.Gregory (talk)
  • Keep multi-time presidential candidate's with political positions covered in extensively by independent, reliable sources.--TM 00:22, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Delete The parent article is not long enough to justify a fork, and can probably be trimmed a bit anyway. TimothyJosephWood 00:59, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Delete. The candidate is far less notable than Clinton, Trump and Johnson. Her political positions are not extensive enough to be covered in a separate article (they fit neatly into her main article). I provide other reasons on the Jill Stein talk page but those are the gist of my objections to a separate Stein Positions article. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:52, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. North America1000 03:00, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. North America1000 03:00, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep - the political positions is not a POV fork but is a division of the prior article to fit existing practices as shown in other candidates, so it fits the WP:SPINOFF accepted section at WP:POVFORK. Also, conceptually the Jill Stein page is a BLP so it should focus on her life and chronology, and maybe change over time of politics -- but not a detailed focus. Markbassett (talk) 02:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment One problem I am having in squaring this with the other pages in our category Category:Political positions of United States presidential candidates, 2016 is that, Trump excepted, all of those candidates have political records as holders of major office where they actually took positions. (Note the "Political positions of Carly Fiorina", like those of several other contenders for major party nomination, redirects). This means that their Political positions pages can be reliably sourced to secondary coverage of their positions on issues they were involved with as elected officials. Jill Stein's page, however, is heavily - and perhaps inevitably - primary sourced, not only to jill2016.com but all the way down to source # 16, ""Dr. Jill Stein on Twitter". Retrieved 2016-07-28.". sources # 3 and # 4 are Jill Stein press releases [2], [3]; no fewer than 6 items are cited to http://www.jill2016.com/plan It is also heavily sourced to partisan sites that may or may not be independent of Stein, the first source on the page is occupy.com, Many other positions are cited to obscure blogs/websites including: lumpenproletariat.org , Rainbow.org , www.p2012.org, and youtube postings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzwZtmTEMuw I could go on, there's more of this sort. My question is whether it is even possible to reliably source an article on a third party candidate who has never held a significant public office (she was a member of the Lexington town meeting) and who, therefore, has no press coverage on issue positions outside of what comes during a political campaign.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:47, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Your activism on both Jill Stein's page and Ajamu Baraka's make it such that I'm not surprised by your comments. Of course, given your activism, you know that none of the tweets mentioned have been added by the creator of this page, but have been primarily (if not exclusively) added by Snooganssnoogans (above). One might cynically believe the goal in preventing this page from existing, despite clearly established precedent, is to ensure that people seeking to learn more about Jill Stein don't have to click twice in order to see the writing I and others have slowly and patiently managed to tone down towards neutrality in the past weeks despite the user's consistent unwillingness to compromise (or even talk cf. lack of response to [User:AndrewOne|AndrewOne] here for one example among many). (It should be noted that Snooganssnoogans is the author of much of this page User Contribution Search. Since August, I have become more active providing balancing material in the past month, Snooganssnoogans continues to be active, and has provided us with, for example 16 references to the same Washington Post interview here, which strikes me (and others in print) as both an unbalanced source (given the questions) and undue weight. Nevertheless, in the spirit of "consensus" of those involved on a daily basis reverting efforts aimed at improving the article to remove the anti-bias tag on the Jill Stein page in late August, I have not removed those links, despite the obvious bias of the way in which the questions the Post asked her (already expressing the Post's negative point of view (as for Sanders)) have been used. But I'll assume "good faith" and admit that there are some things in life I could not understand behind that veil of ignorance. ^^
To respond to the substantive claim in your argument, to the best of my knowledge, Noam Chomsky, and Christopher Hitchens and Ralph Nader have never held political office, yet all three have political positions pages... SashiRolls (talk) 14:32, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Political positions of Ralph Nader turns out to be a poster child for all the problems with Political positions of articles created for minor candidates during campaigns, especially bad sourcing.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:20, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Note, however, that Political positions of Tim Kaine and Political positions of Mike Pence redirect to their pages, as several of us are proposing to redirect this to Jill Stein. Nor do we have Political Positions of Darrell Castle or Political Positions of Ben Carson, candidates who share the sourcing problem I perceive with Stein, that is, the fact because she has never been elected to a significant office or been a significant player in the national and international political conversation, we lack the kind of analysis by political scientists, policy analysts and political journalists that enables us to reliably source articles on Noam Chomsky, and Christopher Hitchens and Ralph Nader. Perhaps it is merely WP:TOOSOON.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Striking part of my comment because on examining those 3 articles I find that I was incorrect; the Caldwell and Chomsky pages both suffer from excessive reliance on primary sourcing, while Political positions of Ralph Nader is so bad it that needs to be redirected or deleted. The point is that all 3 articles held up as models by User:SashiRolls appear to reinforce my hypothesis that sources (or something) makes it close to impossible to source good articles on the political positions of individuals who have not served in major political office.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:34, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
  • In my opinion, to meet WP:HEY an editor would have to remove the WP:FANCRUFT from the page along with all the blogs and everything that cannot be sources as per WP:RS, and turn this into at least an early version of something that might conceivably become WP:GOOD. I just spent a little time nosing around, and my impression is that RS do not at this point exist to either properly source such an article, or to support its notability. It is simply WP:TOOSOON to source an article of this type on Stein. E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Delete. In principle, there can be both a bio page and a political views page for a particular political figure. However, to make it an editorially desirable separation, there should be a good reason for the political views page to explore content that does not fit at the bio page, and also, both pages must be equally balanced and neutral in POV. Here, however, this really is a WP:POV fork, intended to bypass content disputes at the bio page. The content is pretty much just copy-pasted, and it seems unlikely that there will be sufficient reason in the next year or so for this page to go into additional content. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:07, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:POVFORK, and possibly containing OR based on primary sources, such "JS on Twitter" etc. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep. There are sources: [4] and [5] from Rolling Stone, [6] from Politico, [7] from Newsweek, [8] from NBC News, [9] from Bustle, [10] from CNN, [11] from The Washington Post, [12] from The Post-Standard, [13] from The Seattle Times, [14] from Slate. These articles not just "Jill Stein is running for President" stories; they analyze her political positions and compare/contrast them to other candidates. If the article is problematic, it can be fixed. I skimmed over it, and it looks like there are some questionable sources. But it's possible to find better ones. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:08, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment -- I believe the above sources are best added to the main article Jill Stein. Since she's described there as a "perennial candidate" I believe it's best to keep the material on her political positions there. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:38, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
    • Agreeing with K.e.coffman's comment just above, I don't think that anyone questions the existence of sufficient sources to satisfy WP:GNG. Instead, the issue is that satisfying notability does not make it mandatory to have a separate page. Here, there are issues of WP:SOAP, WP:NOTNEWS, and WP:IINFO. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:44, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Note. SashiRolls has been topic-banned from Jill Stein-related content as an Arbitration Enforcement sanction. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:36, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep as per above Keep arguments. It's a fork but a notable one.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 22:45, 3 September 2016 (UTC)


Disciplinary Sanctions brought against SashiRolls by Tryptofish

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning SashiRolls

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
Template:Userlinks 18:11, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Template:Userlinks

Template:Ds/log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
  1. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms#Discretionary Sanctions
  2. Also Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Genetically modified organisms
  3. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2#Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 

These edits are all at Jill Stein (clearly in scope for American politics):

Violation of 1RR restriction on GMO content:

  1. I make this edit: August 31. SashiRolls reverts addition of a source: September 1, falsely claiming that the source does not contain the cited information. This is because the source is Physics Today, and a scientifically based publication undercuts the POV that what the community decided in WP:GMORFC about the scientific consensus is incorrect. Please note that the specific content is directly about the scientific consensus on the safety of eating GM food, which is exactly the topic of the RfC and the resulting DS.
  2. I restore the source: September 1. SashiRolls removes it a second time: September 1. In that same edit (lower down in the diff), he also reinserts a negative connotation about a journalist, that I had tried to correct as a WP:BLP issue: September 1.

Against a background of repeated slow edit warring:

August 31, August 31, August 31. The other editor was actually correct: [15].

And POV-pushing:

  1. permalink Does not like a source, so claims that the Washington Post is not a WP:RS. Other editors near unanimous in rejecting the claim as patently false and WP:POINTy.
  2. Then goes on to edit war, to insert a disparaging "ref name" about the source: August 31, August 31, August 31, August 31.

Continues WP:Battleground after this AE has opened, blames everyone except self:

  1. Opposition research: September 2, September 2, September 2.
  2. More edit warring: September 2, September 2.
  3. Resumes same edit war the next day, making 2 reverts per day to avoid 3RR but maintaining continuous slow edit war: September 3, September 3.
  4. Refactors other editors' talk page comments: September 3. Deflects blame: September 3.
If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
August 27, August 30, (also September 1).
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 

I leave it to the patrolling administrators to assess how much SashiRolls is self-aware about the issues here, how well TFD understands what was determined about DS for GMOs after such a very long struggle, and whether there is any truth to the silly claims that I have been disruptive at the Stein page. --Tryptofish (talk) 13:56, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Responding specifically to where TFD said: "While the closing adminstrator determined the consensus of the RfC and set discretionary sanctions, those sanctions were not for disgreeing with the determination of facts in the RfC. Ironically, Stein has not said that currently manufactured GMO food is unsafe." The issue at the page was about saying in Wikipedia's voice that the opposite of the RfC language is true; there is no objection to quoting Stein as saying the opposite. The page quotes Stein as saying that the existing science says what the community rejected at the RfC, and SashiRolls has opposed citing critics of Stein's statements. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:09, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

@Laser brain: Please note that I just added diffs of continued edit warring today, and weigh that in whether a warning will prove effective. Also, although I accept that, in terms of possible sanctions, AP2 is more central that GMO, please consider that GMORFC was intended to put an end to arguments, and without a clear statement now at AE, some editors will continue to argue that anything goes on pages other than the pages listed at the RfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

A warning will be fruitless, and ANI would be a drama-fest of arguing content. Either DS mean something, or let's shut AE down. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:18, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 
[16]

Discussion concerning SashiRolls

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by SashiRolls

Given Snoogannsnoogans' invective laden and patently false accusations, I will ask until Monday at 17:00 to respond completely, as Snoogannsnoogans hasn't really understood that Tryptofish may well be making a larger WP:Point, not entirely involving me, by bringing me here. Snooganssnoogans first censored me on the 13 Aug, here. Between the 11 Aug and 16 July he made 16 reverts (all of other people). His first revert on the page was the 29th of June. His reverts are of two types: to delete content that he feels support a positive image of Stein, or to do defend as the status quo content that he feels support a negative image of Stein. These are the facts concerning the user's interventions on the article.

Concerning Tryptofish's assertion that the 1RR applies in the GMO section, I solicited input from the closing admins of the GMO debate who declined to comment. The Four Deuces and I both looked into his assertion and do not find it credible. Tryptofish, who is apparently somewhat famous, is clearly a very experienced Wiki-warrior given his past interactions with the Arbitration Committee. Having learned this from a google search trying to find clues as to what the "trypto" could mean, I decided to proceed cautiously, including the entire "proposition 1" of that debate in the article (3-4 lines of texts with lengthy references), because Tryptofish seemed like he wanted to create trouble in that section. He reverted this commonsense peaceful solution here.

I'm also not sure why s/he wanted to include this article ("Media coverage thin for presidential candidates’ science awareness and views"), almost entirely about Clinton & Trump (with one sentence dismissing his own Weissmann reference) and pointing fingers at ScienceDebate.org to support his claim that many articles are calling Stein "contrary to science" (diff). This, in the context of a great deal of pushback concerning normal wikipedia spin-off procedures for political candidates pages (afd that he encouraged, but hasn't yet voted in (4 delete, 3 keep, currently)...)

POV-pushing (ref-name change): Tryptofish's 2nd and 3rd diffs in this section do not refer to my edits (cf. the chaotic (& snarky) removal of material and vast operation of multiple reference renaming, which added confusion to the page (I was not involved in these decision to snark with significant chunks of content). In sum I changed one reference name in the first "diff", waiting for the "stray link fixed bot" to come and pick it up. I stayed on the page to see if it would. It didn't. I fixed what I had done by replacing all 16 references to the same article, introduced all in one edit by another editor here. I admit this was to make a point after having seen yet another bit of (what I consider to have been) trolling cluttering the head of a sub-section that has caused much grief and hard work in the last month with a gossipy quote that had nothing to do with anything: (diff). I figred if Tryptofish could troll with impunity I could draw attention to a serious problem: Snooganssnoogans's particularly lopsided edit here, in which introductions and conclusions of Jill Stein's arguments were cited, but the argument itself strangely disappeared from at least some of the 16 quotes s/he added from the WaPo. (cf. talk here).

Tryptofish does not mention this context of consistent disruptive editing, nor does he mention his own, somewhat more troubling, history of it: he came to the Jill Stein thread on the 20th of August, with very pointed stated goals (vaccines, GMOs and pesticides interventions in the article) and added lots of "menacing" warnings about AE in his/her participation in the talk thread. I will not comment on the POV that Tryptofish may or may not be pushing, as I don't understand his actions.

Regarding the diffs that are said to relate to "slow edit warring". In an environment of (occasionally) diametrically opposed viewpoints, and on a page where one editor has been going up to 3RR frequently on a regular basis in July and August (I came to the thread only in August myself), it is not surprising to find that I made 2 reverts on a section recently marked by another user as non-neutral precisely because of the text concerned. Repeated requests have been made to the editor to rework the paragraph he has added and reworked over time, to no avail. [17]. I have likewise had to remove an unreliable source that the user deliberately smuggled back into the article at [15:10 27 Aug 2016, after admitting the source had failed a basic fact-check talk 15:04 27 Aug 2016 and should not be included.


I do not anywhere say that the WaPo is an unreliable source generally, contrary to the claim made, and two of the four revert diffs have nothing to do with me. There was a great deal of intermediary sniping going on, while I tried to satisfy AndrewOne's concerns about the QE argument in the Education section (from [Talk] and [POV tag]). Cf. also these more worrying snark edits diff and diff


I also think ludicrous (lud = fun), and ridiculous (rid = laugh) are odd word choices that I see a lot on the talk pages. diff1 diff2. SashiRolls (talk) 23:03, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Response to additional comments from the accused party

I have responded at length on my talk page and at Talk:Jill_Stein#WP:DUE + cite Talk:Jill_Stein#from_WP:Edit_warring + diff of earlier menacing thousand-year comment from notifier, which I chose to remove from my talk page. SashiRolls (talk) 15:29, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by clpo13

I take full ownership of this edit. In my defense, SashiRolls felt that the interview was accorded undue weight, so I figured I'd see what all would have to go if the source wasn't used. Turns out there was a lot. Well, I put it all back and received a (rightful) admonishment about being WP:POINTy, which I've taken to heart.

Anyways, SashiRoll's original complaint was vague, and a follow-up response clarified that the real issue was WaPo's apparent bias against Sanders (and by extension Stein, I guess). But that still comes across as "WaPo doesn't like my candidate so we shouldn't use it as a reference". It took a fair bit of needling to get any further explanation. I can understand the sentiment that no Wikipedia article should rely so much on a single article, but this wasn't a good way to go about making an objection since it wasn't clear to many people what the issue actually was.

As a final note: relying on the bot to fix the reference names probably wasn't the best idea, since over an hour passed between the first change and my fix, during which time the source was inaccessible to readers. clpo13(talk) 23:37, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by The Four Deuces

Jill Stein is not a "page[] relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them, broadly construed." Earlier, it was determined in a request for clarification in which Tryptofish participated, that Bernie Sanders was not a page related to GMOs. (See: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms.) Both Stein and Sanders are or were 2016 presidential candidates who are critics of GMOs.

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Genetically modified organisms applies to 11 named articles and "will be implemented, broadly construed, for other articles in the subject area." Furthermore, there is no template for GMO on the talk page, although there is one for "American politics 2." 1RR is not part of U.S. politics general sanctions[18] and would be too draconian for such a wide topic area.

Trypofish falsely claimed at Talk:Jill Stein, "I want to make it very clear to editors that the content that I reverted violates the [GMO] Discretionary Sanctions linked above, because it alters the language that was established in the community RfC about GMOs. Editors must not make up alternative language, and doing so will result in Arbitration Enforcement." [20:55, 27 August 2016[19]] While the closing adminstrator determined the consensus of the RfC and set discretionary sanctions, those sanctions were not for disgreeing with the determination of facts in the RfC. Ironically, Stein has not said that currently manufactured GMO food is unsafe.

The articles in The Washington Post and others are cited in the article as the opinions of their authors, not as statements of fact. While SashiRolls unfortunately says the paper is not rs, he actually argues that it is biased, and provides an article originally published in Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting ("Washington Post Ran 16 Negative Stories on Bernie Sanders in 16 Hours") as a source.[20] [22:43, 31 August 2016[21]] The paper's editorial board has called Trump a "clear and present danger."[22] although it has not yet endorsed Clinton. It is not a stretch of the imagination to assume that at least some of the opinions expressed in the paper have a partisan tinge.

The article by Steven T. Corneliussen, ""Media coverage thin for presidential candidates’ science awareness and views", in Physics Today, does not "clearly agree[] with the criticism" of Stein, as Tryptofish says. [1 September 2016[23]] It says only, "An opinion piece at Slate dismissed Green Party candidate Jill Stein as “a Harvard-trained physician who panders to pseudoscience” concerning genetically modified organisms, pesticides, “quack medicine,” and vaccine efficacy. If anything it draws into question the extensive concentration on science issues that Trypofish has shown.

Tryptofish was an involved party in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms. It appears that his interest in that topic has brought him to the Jill Stein article and blurs his neutrality. S/he has not provided edits on any Green-related articles except to add opinions that they are anti-science.

TFD (talk) 00:03, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Timothyjosephwood

I'm somewhat involved, though not deeply. Sashi's enthusiasm is admirable, but unfortunately their experience hasn't caught up with it yet, and disagreements stemming from that gap seem to have grown tensions to the point where assumptions of good faith have started to wane on all sides.

Mentoring could be an option here, given appropriate assurances by Sashi that they're willing to slow down a bit and take active steps toward being a bit more cool headed about things. TimothyJosephWood 12:33, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Given their behavior over the past 24 hours, strike all above. TimothyJosephWood 11:00, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
User is openly warring on the article, ([24], [25],[26], [27], [28]), being generally disruptive on the talk, mangling formatting and others comments to the point where I'm not even sure what diffs to provide. They've dropped any pretense that this is anything but a personal contest, and accused others on their talk of leading an "offensive" against Jill Stein, and apparently calling me a Nazi for suggesting that they take a break and edit something less controversial for a while.
Either sanction the user or close this because we would have easily already been at ANI or AN3 were it not for this open complaint. TimothyJosephWood 15:03, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by snooganssnoogans

The user SashiRolls has for the last few weeks engaged in constant disruptive editing on the Jill Stein page. I'll try to limit this text to just recent examples of disruptive behavior. The user repeatedly:

  • re-writes text into incoherent word salads full of weasel words. Yesterday, SashiRolls edited Stein's straight-forward position on student debt (she wants to cancel it using quantitative easing) into some incomprehensible mess that also features original research: "Stein has brought the idea of debt relief for student loans, much discussed after the Federal Reserve began quantitative easing,[1][2][3] back into the political arena in 2016.[4][5]"
  • adds content of questionable reliability and relevance. The user repeatedly adds WP:OR which does not mention Jill Stein, the Green Party and usually comes from rubbish sources and does not relate to the subject at all. IIRC, the user has added 4-5 OR pieces to the article in just the last two days.
  • cannot or will not tell the difference between a reliable source and an unreliable source. The user has, for instance, fought to include TeleSur, ShadowProof, Mint Press and Counterpunch as reliable sources while trying to get the Washington Post excluded from the page for being an unreliable source. Just today, SashiRolls restored ShadowProof and Counterpunch, which I removed for being unreliable. It's impossible to edit the page when the user cannot or will not tell the difference between a reliable source and unreliable one.
  • acts in disingenuous ways to revert content. On the 31 August, I used up three reverts to revert SashiRolls' demonstrably false edits (the user claimed that a paragraph had nothing to do with Stein's education plan, despite containing the phrase "student loan" three times and being doubtlessly about Stein's plan to cancel student debt), at which point SashiRolls responded, "ok, you are at 3RR for today." The user repeatedly calls out users for approaching or being at the 3RR limit (or in the case of the GMO section the 1RR limit), usually always when reverting SashiRolls' ridiculous edits.
  • casts aspersions on the intentions of other editors. The user has repeatedly over the last few weeks cast aspersions on at least three editors and Wikipedia as an institution. user:Neutrality has called SashiRolls out on this with little effect. The user has also repeatedly threatened to sanction me or have me banned, something I've never encountered before despite editing a lot on political pages. Despite being involved in contentious editing on a number of political pages, I have honestly never encountered an editor that has edited in such a disruptive manner as SashiRolls without being sanctioned for it.
  • goes against consensus. SashiRolls created an RfC on 13 August 2016 where he/she proposed re-writing Jill Stein's position on Brexit. This was overwhelmingly rejected. Since having had the RfC rejected, SashiRolls has on three or four occasions re-written the Brexit section in ways that were rejected in the RfC.
  • goes against the discretionary sanctions in the Stein article. SashiRolls has occasionally within 24 hours reverted the same content in the GMO section, which I believe is a violation. Other than that, SashiRolls continues to edit the GMO section in insincere and ridiculous ways.
  • lies about the content of sources, the content of the Stein article and what happens on the talk page. In a particularly memorable talk, SashiRolls willfully misrepresents the user JayJasper's twice comment on the talk page[29] (once after having it pointed out to him/her) and also in the edit summary when SashiRolls proclaimed that he/she had consensus for a particular edit relating to that talk. Within the last few days, SashiRolls lied or pretended to be obtuse about the Stein's education plan, arguing that her proposal to cancel student loan debt through quantitative easing had nothing to do with education or student loans. SashiRolls repeatedly misrepresents the content of sources, there's no point running through the times.
  • edit (one day later): I just want to note that SashiRolls just restored conspiracy and fringe websites twice this morning to the Stein (this is now the forth time in two days that he/she's restored them). Even though the user is on Arbcom, he/she shows no sign of taking the warnings and advice of other editors to heart.

Template:Reflist-talk - Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:38, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Neutrality

I agree completely with Snooganssnoogans and Timothyjosephwood others who have commented. On Stein and Stein-related articles, SashiRolls' sustained course of conduct has been completely unacceptable, and the array of problems is broad: everything from casting aspersions to personal attacks to POV-pushing.

I also agree with Timothyjosephwood that it would be wise to act on this report relatively rapidly. If this file weren't open, this matter might well be up at ANI for discussion of a possible topic ban of SashiRolls. Neutralitytalk 18:24, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Result concerning SashiRolls

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • I am concerned both about the behavior of SashiRolls enough to suggest a sanction. I would suggest that SashiRolls comment as soon as feasible. NW (Talk) 18:43, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
    • Unrelated to here mostly, but I am also concerned about the article being a battleground for people's opinions about politics writ large. Are we really using Counterpunch and Shadowproof (Firedoglake) within the Jill Stein article to criticize the coverage of The Washington Post on Wikipedia? NW (Talk) 18:43, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
      • I'm still stuck on this issue, and it appears that SashiRolls simply just doesn't get it. Quoting from the first draft of their statement[30], "A brief response to NW, who is concerned about Shadowproof. The article has not been disputed on any grounds, though many people have seen it. Had that subject been opened, I would have responded or withdrawn, if consensus was reached concerning it. This is an article about a US eco-socialist politician, so no, the Washington Post, as wikipedia's own subject on the paper might suggest, is not likely to be a reliable source concerning her politics. Jacobin, Democracy Now!: these are among "her" fellow-traveling media outlets; Counterpunch has frequently published her running mate. They are knowledgeable sources about the Left. Her sources will look different than mainstream news outlets." This is a fundamental failure to understand Wikipedia's sourcing and neutral point of view policies, and I do not see how a warning will be sufficient. I am going to issue a six month topic ban relating to Jill Stein under the post-1932 American Politics discretionary sanction. Further requests for action can be brought to here without prejudice. NW (Talk) 19:23, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I favor a one-time warning. I'm unimpressed by SashiRolls' behavior here, which amounts to POV-pushing in my opinion. I consider this to fall mostly under DS for American Politics—the fact that the content is related to GMO is an aggravating factor but shouldn't be used as a red herring to distract from the poor behavior. I don't quite think we are dealing with behavior that rises to the level of sanctions, though. Further edit warring to push a POV should be met with an American Politics topic ban of some length. --Laser brain (talk) 16:36, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I've had some experience with SashiRolls on my talk page (User_talk:NeilN/Archive_33#Enforcement_request_and_COI - starts about one-third of the way down) which left me unimpressed. Plus there are incomprehensible statements like this. Any warning should highlight WP:1RR and instruct the editor to stop casting aspersions. --NeilN talk to me 16:49, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Talk page (sashirolls)

up to date. Jan 2016. Then, I made the mistake of editing a Green party VP candidate's page. ^^

interactions with neutrality

This edit of yours is not acceptable. It is a form of personal attack, specifically "casting aspersions." See also Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, Wikipedia:Civility. Please refrain from making these kinds of (baseless) comments. Neutralitytalk 01:30, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm glad you're looking at that page, as indeed there have been some poor citation practices (cutting sentences apart for example). Much work was needed to render that page somewhat neutral. SashiRolls (talk) 01:43, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Would you like me to delete the comment?SashiRolls (talk) 01:45, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, that would be ideal. Thank you. Neutralitytalk 03:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
You're welcome. The joke was clearly not a personal attack because nobody was targeted. The comment that there was an edit flurry after the nomination, suggesting that it was the Green Party who was editing his page, just struck me as wrong given the clear anti-Green bias on the page. At that time I was not aware who the main actors were. Now I am aware who the main actors are. ^^ SashiRolls (talk) 17:07, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
Referring to other editors as "Clinton spinners" is a personal attack even if you don't identify particular editors by name. That kind of language is not called for. (Neither, for that matter, is referring to other editors as nefarious "main actors" in some kind of conspiracy. Neutralitytalk 21:27, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

It's nice to meet you, sir. My apologies. I appreciate now that you may have been touchy on the subject, I didn't realize you had been made nationally famous for your work on Kaine's page just before he announced.

"The Wikipedia page of Virginia Senator Tim Kaine [...] has seen 62 edits on Friday alone. There have been almost 90 edits over the past week. Many of them originate from a user called Neutrality, a longtime Wikipedia editor who has made more than 110,000 edits to the encyclopedia. " (emphasis added) [6] SashiRolls (talk) 01:20, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Please note: I am not accusing you of being a Clinton spinner any more now than I was before. It's just an amusing coincidence that I thought was worth mentioning since you criticized me on my talk page for a harmless joke.


Previous accounts

Have you edited Wikipedia previously edited Wikipedia under other usernames?E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:15, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

no, I have not. I edit anonymously, i.e. not for credit, unless it is necessary to login in cases of conflict. I am not particularly interested in having a discussion with you unless it starts with an apology for your personal attack here. SashiRolls (talk) 20:22, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Advice

SashiRolls, if your goal is to improve the Wikipedia articles on subjects you care about, some of your behavior recently may have been counterproductive. I understand how frustration can make it difficult, but avoiding incivility is really essential. Especially if other editors are not acting in good faith, it is important for you to communicate civilly and demonstrate good faith more generally so that others can tell the difference between your behavior and theirs. Otherwise, third-party observers are going to be inclined to oppose you even when you may be correct about the substance.

Consider this excerpt from the NPOV policy: "When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance; we must do our best to step back and ask ourselves, 'How can this dispute be fairly characterized?' This has to be asked repeatedly as each new controversial point is stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all-comers; it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides. Consensus is not always possible, but it should be your goal."

If you fundamentally disagree with that tenet of Wikipedia, it may be best to let go and save yourself the frustration. But I do believe in it. Wikipedia is one of very few places left in the world where people with diametrically opposed viewpoints attempt to discuss controversial issues with each other and forge a consensus. It's messy and imperfect, but it's pretty much the best thing we've got.

Assuming good faith and striving for civility and consensus does NOT mean letting people walk all over you. But when you feel mistreated, rather than trying to "fight back" with snarky comments and strategic editing, it's more effective to appeal to higher authority in the proper way using the Dispute Resolution process. Read the WP:DISPUTE policy carefully. It will help you to remain calm by reminding you both that there are processes available to help you and that your own conduct will be scrutinized when you do ultimately appeal to others for help. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 19:13, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate your anonymous advice. I will do my best to continue my project of making the page as fair as possible. I have never been involved in a political page before and felt, after seeing multiple editors fail; I am moving forward in the only way I can, by trying to be fair to both sides. But it is ridiculous to have "would lose to a gorilla" and "bad mother" quotes on a Wikipedia page about a person. There is also a significant "stalling" campaign that is being led to make it as difficult as possible to undo the damage to the page since June. Understand, that by the very fact that I don't know you, I can assume good faith and answer, or assume it's part of a stalling campaign and spend my time elsewhere. Snark is admittedly not as effective as the clacking tongue (langue de bois... e.g. "this has already been discussed and decided".) Please feel free to work on the page rather than talking about working on the page! Happy editing. SashiRolls (talk) 20:27, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Also for info I did appeal to a superadministrator NeilN for guidance several (four) days ago, and am following the dispute process, which, in fact I have read. I did not expect the talk page to balloon as it did; that was clever strategy from Snoog. Though there may be none of this going on, having read this article and seen the strong bias of both the Baraka page and the Stein page, I have decided to act to prevent any potential "hacking" that I can, whether it be professional or amateur: Bloomberg: "How to Hack an Election" SashiRolls (talk) 20:35, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Actually, some of your comments on NeilN's talk page were part of my motivation for offering you this advice. Accusations like this come across as "wild" because VictoriaGrayson was not using "standard rollback," which makes a difference in the guidelines. Also, ownership is a complex issue and the record (as far as I have seen) doesn't seem to show you following the recommended course of action in response to suspicion of ownership. Again, I understand your frustration, given the amount of time and effort you have obviously put into this. But if you can find the presence of mind to engage in a more disciplined way, it will both save you time and stress and also be more effective in improving Wikipedia.
As for your hacking comments, that's an interesting article you link to, but it is only tangentially related to these specific Wikipedia disputes. Again, such comments are not an effective way to address suspicions of COI. Instead, they are actually counterproductive because they make you look reckless in the eyes of those with the (difficult) responsibility of making the judgment calls on such things. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 21:39, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
I see who you are now and I've read your comments on the page. I thank you for your suggestions, which are solid! My problem is that, not having any sort of special rollback software, I don't know how it works, for me "roll back" in that particular case, was to revert a whole series of edits. I'm also not really that interested in trying to prove COI. I don't want to cause anyone any harm, I just want the continuous reversion of fair edits to stop. SashiRolls (talk) 22:07, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
talk Thank you for likewise posting your questions to the other users' pages as well. I appreciate it, they are good questions. Don't worry, I'm perfectly willing to be overruled, or change my position, after a fair discussion (as has been the case on the Ajamu Baraka page on occasion...) SashiRolls (talk) 20:53, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

you're doing great

don't give up. and thank you. 174.17.227.62 (talk) 15:31, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

sorry I was curt on the page; I don't want things to become more inflamed, because that won't help anyone make progress. I just want the situation fixed, so that we're not always fighting about a gorilla, and can get on to the more subtle problems... for which I recognize I may not be entirely helpful, though I am trying my best to be neutral. You did make me laugh. a lot. (incidentally ^^) SashiRolls (talk) 17:42, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion

Hello, SashiRolls. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Jill Stein.The discussion is about the topic Jill Stein. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.175.226 (talk) 16:44, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello, anon. thanks very much for your help and advice. I agree my formulation was poor in the RfC. No contest. Do take a break if you need to. I will try to too, but intend to keep an eye on the developments for a while (and may soon take further dispute resolution steps, if nobody else does first). SashiRolls (talk) 17:48, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 24

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fixed SashiRolls (talk) 13:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Your misunderstanding of consensus

Please read Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Consensus generally means that when material is challenged — particularly by multiple editors who have each stated policy-based reasons for the challenge — you do not restore the content without first discussing the issue. "Consensus" does not mean that your position is the default. Neutralitytalk 13:26, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Your tendency to revert those who do not have an anti-Stein, anti-Baraka perspective is shocking. From the page you cited: "Consider reverting only when necessary. Reversion should be a last choice in editing: the first choice in editing should always be to improve an article by refinement, not to revert changes by other editors." I do not think you can pretend to be neutral in this discussion given your revert history. SashiRolls (talk) 13:33, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
That's not responsive to what I said. It's regrettable that you continue to impugn and disparage those who disagree with you by merely accusing them of being "anti-Stein."Onjce again: Consensus generally means that when material is challenged — particularly by multiple editors who have each stated policy-based reasons for the challenge — you do not restore the content without first discussing the issue. Neutralitytalk 13:36, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
I did. I posted a comment on the "Nazi" section to the talk page explaining my reasons very clearly for adding the content. No reasoned response was given other than a comment about the number of votes received at IMDB for the documentary in question. No comment has been made whatsoever concerning the citation from Hedges. The dilatory tactics continue... SashiRolls (talk) 13:39, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
That's not accurate: multiple editors directly pointed out to you how this content (like other content you've tried to add) strays from the article subject. As to Hedges, a pending RfC also dealing with another Hedges quote (!) clearly demonstrates that a firm consensus disfavors conclusion. To ignore others' comments and accuse them of being "dilatory" is not proper conduct. Neutralitytalk 13:43, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
What I have said is completely accurate. I would request (again) that you seek consensus on the talk page and cease hassling me on my talk page. thank you. SashiRolls (talk) 13:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

GMOs at Jill Stein

Template:IvmTemplate:Z33

I am putting this notice here as a required formality, not as any sort of accusation. I am doing this because of these edits that you made: [31], which created alternative language than that which is required as a result of the Community RfC about GMOs. Please familiarize yourself with the terms of the Discretionary Sanctions, because they are subject to strict enforcement. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:05, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello Tryptofish, I do not believe that my edit above is not in contradiction with the proposition at Community RfC about GMOs. I am not sure why you deleted reference to European positions on GMO, as it is clearly approved by the accepted proposition at the RfC. Propose adding the full adopted proposition verbatim, signaling it as such. Please note that it is not at all clear that these discretionary sanctions apply to the Jill Stein page, insofar as that page is not in the list, and as a result I will not seek sanctions against you for reverting content contained in the approved proposition. SashiRolls (talk) 11:32, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
I already said this at the article talk page, but please understand that I am not trying to be your enemy. The notice above is informational, not a threat. Also, please note that you are now up to 3 reverts at that page, OK? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:17, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

August 2016

Template:NOINDEX

Discretionary sanctions alert

Template:IvmTemplate:Z33 Thank you. - MrX 12:59, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

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September 2016

Please stop making disruptive edits, as you did at Jill Stein.

If you continue to disrupt Wikipedia, you may be blocked from editing. This is disruptive and such behavior needs to not be repeated. VQuakr (talk) 00:24, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

As you probably know, I'd corrected the edit by changing all 16 to a more descriptive name. Another editor chose a different name, before you commented. I assumed the robot would fix the orphaned references as it has every time someone has reverted one of my edits because it did not fit their views on the page. But your point is well taken. Don't count on robots to do a job you can do with a search and replace. SashiRolls (talk) 00:54, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Arbitration Enforcement

Please see WP:AE#SashiRolls. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:14, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

First response: I have a life and a job you know, and that job is not to edit Wikipedia. I don't know what you're doing here. Are you attacking me, or pointing through me at the original edit by Snoogannsnoogans where the 16 WaPo edits were chopped up, as described here and here? You came to the Jill Stein thread on the 20th of August, with very pointed goals (vaccines, GMOs and pesticides interventions in the article) and lots of warnings about AE in the talk thread. Your edits are sometimes very very strange Tryptofish. I like to assume good faith but this is pretty clearly trolling diff. This is not supposed to be a page about gossip. I will edit this as I have time to and add more diffs. SashiRolls (talk) 19:46, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Second response: filed. I don't appreciate you using me in your wars against Arbcom. This is you, right? --> wikipediocracy.com on Tryptofish

September 2016

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

  1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
  2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. TimothyJosephWood 10:57, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

I have thoroughly explained your (recent) role in the snoog war (if there is an offensive against JS being led by snoog on her bio page, as I have long suspected) on the talk page, presenting you with argument concerning the content you wish to censor, including relevant citations concerning how experienced editors work around disagreement. On your talk page this morning it said you were a neo-liberal. Admit you may not, therefore, be the most "knowledgeable source" as Wikipedia says about Jill Stein. As I said there, I am open to debate, and find dodging debate highly suspicious behavior.
references Talk:Jill_Stein#WP:DUE + Talk:Jill_Stein#from_WP:Edit_warring + diff of menacing thousand-year comment, which I chose to remove from my talk page. 14:44, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Topic Ban from Jill Stein

As per the Arbitration Enforcement discussion that you are aware of, I am issuing a topic ban from the article Jill Stein and related pages on the English Wikipedia. This sanction will last until March 3, 2017. Please see Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions for details relating to the sanction and instructions on how to appeal if you wish. 19:28, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Amazing that such an important message should be unsigned, NW. Almost is if something much bigger than my own little person was afoot. Well, OK. Have it your way, then. I'll wait for further explanation. I'm satisfied with the progress I've made by putting myself on the front lines. I will probably appeal, though perhaps not immediately. Viva Wikipedia, and thank you for the message. SashiRolls (talk) 03:26, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
This is a fairly common error in signatures. Note that in your signature in the section above, it also omitted the sign but included the time stamp. TimothyJosephWood 11:55, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Active AfD

As I leave off editing the pages surrounding Jill Stein on the English Wikipedia, I would like to note that there is still an open "AfD" (that is to say: a call to delete an article) here. Neutrality initiated a call to delete the Political positions of Jill Stein page, and so far seven of eleven editors have agreed, including Tryptofish, Timothyjosephwood, MrX, E.M.Gregory, (who have all been so kind as to leave me comments above) and Snooganssnoogans (who has not). Independent, third parties who have never been involved on the page Jill Stein have voted 2-0 in favor of keeping the article so far.

The call for deletion of Jill Stein's political positions page is, again, here, whether you are for or against JS having a political positions page like the other three major candidates, you too can participate in making Wikipedia a better place (but perhaps not for long). SashiRolls (talk) 14:20, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

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